Powerful Tools to Combat Perfectionism
Do you ever feel like your need to achieve dominates your life?
When you check something off your must achieve in life bucket list does it feel unsatisfying because you’re on to the next thing to achieve?
Then, my friend, you might be an overachieving perfectionist and today’s guest knows all about it.
Jordana Confino is not only an Adjunct Professor at Fordham Law School, but a certified professional and Founder of JC Coaching & Consulting.
Having spent the bulk of her career working as a lawyer and in legal education at elite institutions, Jordana knows that many high-achieving, successful people hold limiting beliefs that prevent them from truly flourishing. For many years, she was one of them.
Listen in to hear what she had to do with her perfectionism in order to create space and balance in her life for a career, a meaningful relationship with her husband, and still make time for herself. With the lessons she learned, plus leveraging the science of positive psychology and human motivation theory, she now helps other perfectionists transform their lives.
Jordana is devoted to advancing the well-being of the legal profession and helping high-achieving perfectionists from all industries to stop living a life of “shoulds” so that they can finally step into their power and claim the satisfaction and authentic version of success that they deserve.
Learn more and connect with Jordana:
@jordanaconfino on Instagram
Subscribe to her blog: Chronicles of a Recovering Type A+ Perfectionist
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@reinventingthearena on Instagram
Having spent the bulk of her career working as a lawyer and in legal education at elite institutions, Jordana Confino knows that many high-achieving, successful people hold limiting beliefs that prevent them from truly flourishing. For many years, she was one of them. Jordana transformed her life leveraging the science of positive psychology and human motivation theory. Now she is passionate about helping others do the same.
Jordana is devoted to advancing the well-being of the legal profession and helping high-achieving perfectionists from all industries to stop living a life of “shoulds” so that they can finally step into their power and claim the satisfaction and authentic version of success that they deserve.
She’s not only a a certified professional and Founder of JC Coaching & Consulting, but also an Adjunct Professor at Fordham Law School, where she previously served as the Assistant Dean of Professionalism, and where she continues to teach Positive Lawyering, a course she developed to teach law students how they can harness science-backed strategies from positive psychology to achieve greater satisfaction and sustainable success in their lives and work. She was voted Adjunct Law Professor of the Year in 2021.
In her blog, Chronicles of a Recovering Type A+ Perfectionist, Jordana shares stories and offers science-backed tips and strategies for reining in fear and cultivating joy, love, and values-based living in our crazy cut-throat world.
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TRANSCRIPT OF EPISODE
Molly Connolly (00:00.398)
Hey there, lady. Welcome back to another episode of reinventing the arena. If you're listening for the first time, welcome. I'm glad you're here. My guest today is not only an adjunct professor at Fordham law school, but a certified professional coach and founder of JC coaching and consulting. Having spent the bulk of her career working as a lawyer and in legal education in elite institutions, Jordana Cofino knows that many high achieving successful people
hold limiting beliefs that prevent them from truly flourishing. For many years, she was one of them. Jordana transformed her life by leveraging the science of positive psychology and human motivation theory. Now she is passionate about helping others do the same. She's devoted to advancing the wellbeing of the legal profession and helping high achieving perfectionists from all industries to stop living a life of shoulds so that they can finally step into their power and claim satisfaction and authentic version of success that they deserve.
Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Molly. I am delighted to be with you today. my gosh. I, by the way, ladies, we were, we were chatting beforehand and we were talking about all things perfectionism and I started freaking out because I'm like, my gosh, should I hit record yet? And we had a triple check because we cannot miss this conversation. I have to be honest with you. When you messaged me about how you help your clients or what you do to help with your clients.
I knew I had to have you on the podcast. Then I decided I wanted to do a little bit more research and that's when I learned about your journey through achieving like all the things, valedictorian at your high school to Yale law school and more. I knew your personal journey would hit so deep with my listeners. So with that said, can you take us along from where you were like the need to achieve began to where you are today?
Yeah, absolutely. So I would say for for most of my life, I could be pretty accurately classified as a raging overachiever and someone who really wore her perfectionism as a total badge of honor. So now, which is funny because recovering or fast forwarding to where I am now, my blog is Chronicles of Recovering Type A Plus Perfectionists. So where I've come from to where I've come to is very much
Molly Connolly (02:23.79)
A journey for sure. And I mean, it's funny because I had never really thought back to where my perfectionist took root until fairly recently. It was just kind of like a forever thing. And I recognize it was pretty early on in high school. Now, after many therapy sessions and podcast interviews that asked me these questions, I'm realizing basically I can stem the perfectionism really taking hold to early in high school when
some stuff started coming up in my family, especially with my parents and just some scary, upsetting stuff that was completely outside of my control. And it was at that point that I just really doubled down on my schoolwork. I had always been pretty invested in my schoolwork just because my parents were very focused on those things. But it was at that point that I just got super intense. And I think, you know, that's the last time I got anything below an A on
on anything you could say. And that really just increased throughout college and towards law school. And I was a social psychology major in college because that really appealed to me. But when it was coming time to graduate, I was at Yale College. All of my friends seemed at least to be going into banking and consulting. And I just felt that for whatever reason, doing something in psychology or teaching, which is what I was drawn to, wasn't shiny enough.
And I was like, okay, well, I need to need to do the highest, highest achieving most shiny thing. And so what do students who don't know what they want to do with their lives, who are have really good grades and are really good test takers, what do they do? They go to law school. And so I really went into law school with my just overachiever blinders on just sprinting forward towards what are all the gold stars that I can get and how can I get them? And I was really good at getting those things. And so I got all the things that I thought that I wanted.
Increasingly though over time in order to give so much to my work and my studying, it really clouded out basically everything else because there just wasn't space for that. And so I was becoming increasingly disconnected, unhealthy. I mean, in terms of my anxiety, it was increasing my physical well -being, all of the things. And then finally, once I got
Molly Connolly (04:46.414)
out into law practice and I just was nowhere near as happy or as engaged or energized as I thought I should be. Also was looking around the profession being like, hmm, I'm not the only one who's feeling this way, but no one seems to care that I just kind of burned out completely and ultimately had this if not now and moment. Like I can't do this anymore. And it's actually really.
Funny, I discovered my first course on positive psychology, which is something that I now teach, literally Googling how to be happy. And I stumbled on this course. I took the course and it completely blew my mind and revolutionized my whole formula for happiness and success. And I was like, my God, all lawyers and law students and just high achieving professionals more generally need to know this.
Absolutely none of them do. And so it was at that point that I pivoted and left the practice of law, moved into legal education at that point, developed, I underwent my certifications in positive psychology as well as coaching, and I developed this course on positive psychology for lawyers, which I call positive lawyering. Fast forward a few years, I'm now working in a job that I love, and I burned out completely again.
I was like, what's happening? Like, I'm honoring my values. I created these relationships like I'm not working in the toxic law environment anymore. And what I ultimately realized at that point is like I had changed all of these external factors to try to cultivate well -being doing what positive psychology says would help. But I had never really attached or addressed that relationship with myself. And so I was still everything that I was pursuing, even if it was in line with my values.
I was pursuing it from this like deep rooted feeling of unworthy unworthiness and like hustling to prove my worth. And so and still trying to like beat myself into submission in order to prove to myself and other people that I was good enough. And it was at that point that I recognized this and I was like,
Molly Connolly (06:57.39)
you know, I need to address this relationship with myself and ultimately realize like, this is the perfectionism at root. We need to work on this. And so I did that for myself and that was the most transformative thing I've ever done. And so now while I focus on positive psychology more broadly, the core of my work really, really starts with perfectionism because I think especially with the women and the people that I work with, this is really such a foundational.
issue that is preventing so many people from enjoying the happiness or the success that they really deserve. yeah, I want to tell you that three or four times through your story, I got shivers. It's so relatable being a perfectionist. It's really interesting when we address the surface and we are like, it's this.
it's I'm in the wrong field. I'm not attached to my values. I'm doing all these things from what I think might have been happened in my childhood or these expectations that are put upon me. And until you have that other like, aha moment of, okay, you did fix those, but there's still something else getting to that, which is the relationship to self. That's even to me, that is one of the hardest ones to tackle as
perfectionist because we can be recovering. We never could be healed because it's like this has gone on for so long. We have developed patterns and whether that's like actions we take or if it's you know thought patterns and emotional patterns of how we this is how we get through this moment and we just want to repeat it because then it becomes more efficient and yada yada yada next thing you know it's like I've done that for 10 15 20 years now I've realized
this is a core wound I need to heal and work through. And a lot of us don't address it. So it's really, I feel like your transformation just is so valuable to hear. I hope that the women that are listening or whoever is listening goes back and listens to that again, to understand like deep down, we all have probably some sort of perfectionism in us. But for those of us that are high achieving, overachiever, even perfectionists in some areas of our lives, like
Molly Connolly (09:22.03)
this is so, what is the word I'm looking for? Is so relatable and soothing to know that there's others like that out there. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like the quote or the saying that comes to mind is wherever you go, there you are. And I'm sure you know as a coach, often when people come in being like, well, there's this thing that's a problem. So it's my job. The job is a problem, so I need to leave the job. Or,
The relationship is the problem, so I need to leave the relationship. And often the case is like, yeah, those things are true. You should leave the job. You should leave the relationship. But often there's something about how we're thinking and relating to ourselves too that if we don't recognize that and work on it, and I'm like, yes, I could not agree with you more. Like it is recovering. It is something, it is a continuous.
not just like, this is all fixed instantaneously. At least if there is a way to do that, I haven't figured it out. But doing that is so worth it because that's how you really change these deep seated patterns. yeah. And then of course, like when you start the change, it takes time and it takes new level of effort. And as long as we don't try to perfect that, we can still learn that. It's so funny. I can't tell you how often I have to tell my clients like,
Please do not try to perfect the perfectionism recovery, because they'll come in and be like, I didn't do every single thing and it wasn't perfect and da da da da da. And I think that it's often, and we could talk more about this, about how perfectionism holds people back, because if you have, it's all about the, well actually, just taking one step back, what is perfectionism, right? And I think that often, one of the reasons that people struggle so much to give up perfectionism is because,
They think it's a good thing and so they don't want to. And that's because a lot of people hear perfectionism and they think drive, commitment to excellence, attention to detail, all of these positive qualities, all of those positive qualities are excellent. I would not tell you to get rid of any of them. And those are distinct from perfectionism. We can actually keep those things while letting go of the perfectionism. Because what the perfectionism is, is it's the...
Molly Connolly (11:33.87)
unrealistic expectations for unattainable standards. So the goals might be exactly the same, but it's our expectations for how we get there, how fast we get there, whether we get there in a direct straight line without any learning moments or detours on the way. It's also like what's fueling us. Like are we being fueled by passion and purpose and joy, or are we being
fueled by fear, fear of not being good enough. So what I like to say is that perfectionists never actually play to win. They're just playing not to lose. Like, it's like we're pursuing all of these things in order to preserve or prove our feelings of worth, not to, because we don't actually ever feel validated or satisfied when we do well. We're just immediately onto the next thing. And then the last part is like, how do we treat ourselves along the way? Are we...
nurturing and fueling ourselves in order to drive ourselves forward? Or are we, you know, being ruthlessly self -critical and trying to blame and shame ourselves towards it? And so the problem is that when we do all of those things, we think that that approach will propel us forward. And actually, what it's doing us doing often is preventing us from trying anything to begin with or giving up.
immediately so that the perfectionist might say like, well, I'm going to curve my perfectionist tendencies and I'm going to practice more self -compassion. But then they don't do it as perfectly as they hoped. You know, they say I'm going to do it. You know, I'm not going to do any of these perfectionist things tomorrow. And they don't do it perfectly. And they're like, well, I can't do this. And then they give up because they think that if they haven't done it in this completely unrealistic way, it means like there's no point in trying and they shouldn't even
move any forward with it because they'll just be proving further proving that they can't, which is, you know, Highlighting their inadequacy in some other way. You just might've like described my whole life, right? I'm just being honest. I'm like, yeah. When I work with my clients, we do talk about some of the stuff we learned at IPEC and that includes like the inner critic.
Molly Connolly (13:47.054)
And my inner critic is tied to expectations, but it is definitely deeply rooted in the expectations that were put upon me. And, you know, some of the times when we try to go heal those expectations that were, we actually have to address the person that put them upon us and discuss it. So like, there was so many that came up with, for me, especially around my parents being like, we just want you to have a better life than we did. And I'm like,
I thought you guys had a pretty good life. Did we not have a good life growing up? Like all those questions come up and I'm like, okay, well, you know, your expectations around X, Y, and Z is related to your childhood around this and this and this, and that's not my story. So I need to learn how to craft that. But before I get off on that whole side of discussion, we normalize it as a perfectionist. Like we know it's going to happen is burnout. And even as a high achiever, that's going to happen.
And I feel like, you know, especially since there's a lot of women that listen to the podcast, like it's a double dose. Like we're hit with it in our careers, our lives at home. Have you or how have you seen the shift in your own life as you have been working on your perfectionism for so long? yeah, it's wild. So I mean, the first the first time that I. Really.
really, right around the time when I was really trying to address the perfectionism, it was right around the time that I got serious with my, or was trying to get serious with my now husband too, because when I was, when I was in law school and the second half of college, I literally did nothing but studying. There was no space in my life for anything else because my entire identity revolved around the work. And it's actually a chicken and an egg problem issue because when you're,
your whole identity revolves around your work or one thing, then there's so much on the line because if you're not perfect at that, who are you? And I was like, literally, I remember thinking when I was in law school, if I don't have straight honors, what was the point of any of it? Who am I? Which is just such a ridiculous, so ridiculous. But then because you throw so much into it, you squeeze out everything else. So of course there's no other aspect of your identity because...
Molly Connolly (16:06.51)
you've given no space for it, but then by trying to protect that identity, there's no space for anything else and it's kind of a reinforcing thing. So I met my husband in this like miraculous break between the bar exam and my first legal job. I was clerking for a federal judge and I had these three miraculous months off and...
I got to actually be a human for the first time in years and we started this relationship and I knew that I was gonna go underground when I started this job. I worked in that job, it was seven days a week, six to 10 Monday through Friday, eight to eight Saturday, Sunday. So I was like, I gotta make this guy fall in love with me beforehand. Somehow I did miraculously. Then we have this relationship and I vanished for the next two years. And for some reason, God bless his soul, he actually stuck around. But then after two years, he was a banana.
We live six blocks from each other. If we want to have any sort of a meaningful relationship, we need to see each other for more than 10 hours a week between the hours of 9 p and 9 a on Saturday and Sundays, or on Friday and Saturdays, or this is never gonna work. And I was like, wow, like I need to create some space for this other human. I did, fortunately, because I realized I didn't want to lose that. But then as I go on in my career,
I then burned out myself because I was like, okay, now I've created space for the career. I've created space for the husband. wait, but I also need space for me. And then balancing that, and then once you have children factoring that, that's a fourth piece of the pie. And trying to balance all of those different things can be so, I mean, it's an ongoing recalibration. And of course I think,
Work -life balance isn't, I don't think that is a thing. I think work -life harmony is something to strive for much, much more so. But one thing that I have learned and that I have to consistently curb against is if left to my own devices, I will just go until I burn out and then need to take that time to recover and then go until I burn out again. I'm very bad.
Molly Connolly (18:19.95)
stopping while I feel good in creating space to recharge even while I still have energy and putting up those guardrails so that I do not burn myself out again. And it's almost like it takes a lot of a lot of willpower and a lot of kind of like self
supervising in a way. And I realized it a couple of years ago, and I was staying with some friends with this adorable two year old daughter who was like living her best life in the afternoon. And she really didn't want to take a nap. They're like, you need to go down for a nap now. She didn't want to and they're like, but if she doesn't go down, she's going to be miserable later. And sure enough, she didn't take the nap. She was miserable later. And then ever since then, I'm like, okay, I need to carve out this
sort of balance between these things, even on the days when I'm like, I can push through, I can do it because I know what if I do that for too many weeks on end or even too many days on end, depending on what it is, then I'm gonna crash and burn and then it's gonna be like, okay, now I'm so energetically depleted that I'm sick and nothing's getting done for like four days until I feel better again. Or, you know, I've disconnected from my husband now we need to take the time and the energy to get that.
in the place that we want. And so trying to keep myself from going into overdrive mode. And you as an athlete, you'll understand that like, you can't just run a marathon every week because you're so depleted afterwards that it takes that time to really recover and living your life in that way is not sustainable. So trying to have a kind of more sustainable.
work, life, family, personal blend, harmony thing going on is, you know, something that I'm consistently working on. yeah. I totally feel you. I just even think about how for me, when that was happening, like the burnout, it would be like I got diagnosed with anxiety. And before it would be like when my identity was lost after
Molly Connolly (20:35.918)
being a college athlete, I had depression and it would stop me so much from moving forward. But then I would have anxiety because I wasn't moving fast enough. I wasn't where my friends were. Like I went to grad school because of my friends went to grad school and I needed that. And then I was like, this isn't what this one isn't for me. So I went to a different grad school, like a whole different major, like went from, I was a graphic design major, ironically enough, and then decided to go in.
to Savannah College of Art and Design and I wanted to get a degree there. And then I was like, this isn't what I want to do. I want to do nonprofit work and started focusing there. And I was like, actually, I want to do public policy. All of a sudden, it was just wanting to continue and continue and to continue pushing my, you know, my worth towards what letters were after my name. And if I couldn't be an athlete anymore, then I wanted to be someone with an alphabet suit behind me. And eventually I was like,
I'm burning out. I got really, really sick. I had my doctor tell me I had to quit my job because my stress levels were so high. It was affecting me. I was getting ulcers. It was nuts. And until you take that break and say, I need to reset or I need to find a job that's going to, maybe it's going to pay me less, or maybe this is going to make me have to lean on something else. Like I had to take a break. And if I didn't, I don't know where I'd be.
I get into you just brought me to like that pivotal moment. And I still remember it was two residences ago. And I still remember where I was sitting on zoom in one of my old apartments on zoom with my therapist when I had the moment where I told you that I realized that it was my relationship with myself. And it was because this is where I point right, I burn myself out so hard that this point, not only where it was like the anxiety flags screaming, but
I had developed such debilitating chronic pain that I actually could not walk properly. And this is something that people actually don't really know anything about, but the relationship, not just, I feel like people, it makes sense that perfectionism is linked with depression, anxiety, eating disorders. It's also so closely linked with chronic pain, autoimmune issues, migraines, all of the IBS, all of these other chronic health issues that
Molly Connolly (22:55.246)
Doctors often say like, we can't really figure out what's causing them or how to properly treatment, treat them here. You can manage the symptoms with these things, but there's really no cure. And so at this point I had been like, literally my body just stopped functioning. And so I responded like you, I'm like, okay, I'm completely burned out, but I need to push myself harder. I just kept pushing on this like stalled out car. My therapist said to me, she was like, Joanna, if you had a broken down race horse,
that had just literally broken down, collapsed on the ground because of exhaustion and injury. Would you just keep whipping it to try to get it to run, get up and run faster? And I was like, no, like obviously not. And she was like, then why are you doing that to yourself? And I was like, so that was the first time that I finally agreed to let her talk to me about self -compassion for more than like one minute, because for years I had been poo -pooing that as something that
I had no interest in touching whatsoever and self -compassion honestly has been the most powerful tool that I've found to not only rein in my perfectionism but also maximize my wellbeing and turbocharge my performance. And this is the case with all of the, you know, I work with a lot of like super high achieving professionals.
This is the, the study is showing the power of self -compassion to enhance performance and learning and growth in everything from academics to athletics to behavioral change. Like it's wild. People hear it and they're like, that's going to make me like, like flu. It's like a flu flu self -compassion. That'll make me like weak, lazy and complacent. and just like making it self -indulgent. And the thing is, is it actually is like the
fiercest, most motivating, empowering thing that you can do for yourself. It's so counterintuitive, but really wild. yeah. And like, that makes a lot of sense by giving ourself compassion and grace. It's like we drop that feeling, like that anxious feeling that I feel like perfectionism, whether it's round for me, it's constantly like right in my chest or in my throat. But when I give myself grace, it's like all of a sudden I'm breathing, my shoulders drop, right?
Molly Connolly (25:19.47)
And it's like, I am forgiving myself for thinking that I have to have this or be this certain way. And now I get to try a new way. I could allow myself to be curious and be compassionate at the same time. Because if we had a dog or like a puppy, I mean, or like a kid doing something different, we wouldn't want them to like keep hitting their heads against wall doing something thinking that that's going to work and be like, no, just this direction. Just move just a little here and look, new way to go. How fun.
And it's wild too. Like the neuroscience even explains why this is the case. So people think that self -flagellation is like the best way to motivate themselves. But what happens, like you said, is we're just screaming at ourselves like, what's wrong with you? You're terrible. You're stupid. Why can't you do this? You're not good enough. What that does is it inflames the amygdala, which is the emotional part of our brain. And what that happens is called amygdala hijacking. It literally
turns off the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of our brain that governs logical reasoning and analysis. So all we're thinking is, I'm so terrible. We're feeling awful. We're shutting down. It's demoralizing us. It's destroying our confidence and our feelings of self -efficacy and our belief in the ability to do better. And it's literally turning off the part of our brain that could look at the situation and say, yeah, I'm not thrilled with what just happened.
That's painful, but how might I do better next time? Like we're literally just putting blinders over our eyes and preventing ourselves from even seizing that opportunity for growth. Like it doesn't have to hurt in order to work. And in fact, intentionally hurting ourselves in an effort to make it work more is, it's so self -defeating and yet it feels like it's the most, you know.
the strongest, most intentional, motivational thing that we can do. And it just, like our brains are just, they're a little bit wired in a way that's not so great for us. No, I totally agree. And now you just brought up a whole nother thought. Like when you were in IPEC, when they discussed the energy levels, I didn't think there was anything more than three. Because I would go from, I'm a victim to I'm so angry with myself for not getting this right to.
Molly Connolly (27:46.382)
level three, which was like the attitude of, everything's fine. It'll be fine. And there would never be the next four of, well, there's a win -win situation down the line. Like there was never any of that. Did you feel the same way? I mean, I know you're saying yes, but I'm just checking. No, I was the exact same way. And I was also like, okay, don't even, I was like, I can't even get to six and seven because if I try to talk.
to lawyers about this trans and cental. We are all, we are all one. They won't listen, but no, absolutely. I'm like, okay, one to three, I get. And then finally I can start wrapping my mind around four and five, but no, it's wild. It's really, I feel like the three in particular feels very much like, okay, now we're getting into the mind of like.
How can I rationalize this to be the best thing without actually feeling there's no true winning after it? And so yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's what the playing not to lose thing as opposed to playing to win. And that also just reminds me earlier in my career, and I feel like so many people are in this in their relationships too with the settling. They just expect that, you know,
it couldn't and shouldn't actually be wonderful. Like they can't actually have these whole hearted existence where the work they do actually lights them up as opposed to just not hating it. Like I remember when my, when I first was like, I need to leave what I'm doing right now in law. It literally did not occur to me that I could have a job that I loved. So I was just looking at first, I was like, what could I do that would be, you know, kind of close to nine to five at least, because right now I'm working.
60, 70, 80 hours a week. So if I can just get it down closer to 40, then at least I can be happy outside of work. The proposition that I could find work that actually fueled me in a positive way was this total revelation. And I think similarly in their relationships, people, and this is also just going back to our expectations for what we feel like we deserve and what we're worthy of. People feel like it's not really possible.
Molly Connolly (30:01.102)
to win, it's more about just mitigating various types of losses. And it's just not true. But you know, I mean, you know, what we believe becomes our reality because that's what we expect and what we find for ourselves. yeah. And that's a really great point, too, to mention because it's almost like, and this is where the perfectionism I feel like is so deeply rooted and also like checking the box.
So it's like, I checked the box of graduating high school. I checked the box of doing X, Y, Z in college and, got to hurry up and get that job to check that box. I got to get the house to check that box and I better hurry up and get married to check that box. and then there's kids and then there's a dog and then there's family vacations versus asking, does it have to be in that linear fashion? Like you brought up earlier, let alone is that really what you want? Or did someone else tell you that's what you want? And that's why now is your version of success.
when can we figure out what your version of success is? And it's like, but I don't know what myself wants. I don't have time to figure that out because I have XYZ to do. my gosh. Well, that is one of the two most powerful things that I feel like I do with my clients. There's the self -compassion and then there's the values, the values work. And I remember again, so many of my main revelations in life have come with my therapist either on her Zoom or on her couch.
This one was on her couch. This was during law school. This was my second year of law school. I was working in a big law firm and I was just so unhappy. And this is again, I'm looking around, everyone is so unhappy. And I'm like, what is this? There's gotta be something more than this. And she had me do this very, very, very basic values discovery exercise. We're just like the very, you know.
Look at the list of 100 values, identify the five that are most important to you. And let's just think about how, to what extent, what you're doing with your life, when your energy is aligning with these. And it was mind blowing for me because one, I recognized that everything I was doing with my time in my life was not only not furthering, but directly contrary to my values. Like my top values were love and connection. And I was literally the loneliest person on the planet because I was spending 100 % of my time
Molly Connolly (32:12.046)
trying to get perfect grades to become a federal criminal prosecutor. Like that just didn't make sense at all. Second, the craziest thing for me is I literally, second year in law school, I realized I've never once stopped to consider what my values are. Like that wasn't ever a relevant or important question for me. What do I care about? Who cares what I care about? I'm just doing, I care about doing what other people think is most prestigious and important. And it was just kind of this like, wow.
What do I care about? And then seeing it on paper, I care about love, connection, family, love of learning. And I'm not focused on any of these things. And not only that, but I'm measuring my self -worth on my ability to do all of these other things that have nothing to do with what I really care about. The cognitive dissonance of that was just like, wow, this is something to expect.
Lord, but it's just amazing how often people can just get pulled without even recognizing that. Even still, I have to, I literally, I'm wearing a bracelet that says, remember love, because in the hustle and bustle and pressure of life, I'll find myself getting totally subsumed with things that then pull me away from my values. And often I don't even recognize it in the moment until I start feeling those feelings of teetering towards burnout. And I'm like, wait.
huh, men recalibrate, but having, you know, even for someone that literally teaches and coaches on this stuff professionally, I still get pulled away from it. And so it's not easy. It's a constant, you know, reminding ourselves and being willing to recalibrate process. Yeah, I completely agree. And I love how like that is one of my new favorite words now is recalibrate, like how to explain this part and
I didn't do values work ever and no one had ever asked me what did I care about? You know, really I was like, I care about food. I care about swimming because that's what I did as an athlete. And I guess I like to work a lot because I became like a workaholic. And so for me - So was that because you value it? Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard because like I know my values right now because they do shift every once in a while. And I'm a Dr. Brene Brown Fran. I believe in having only two.
Molly Connolly (34:33.742)
So like in Dare to Lead, she makes you pick two and it was so hard. It probably took me three weeks to get there, but it's making a difference and freedom. It used to be authenticity, but authenticity gives me freedom. It can roll up in there. So making a difference, what sucks, feeds me wanting to work all the time. So I have to understand that that is part of my perfectionism of thinking once again, my worth is tied into what I do.
So I have to pull that out and realize I can make a difference too in areas of my relationships and with my body and with my health. And so I have to really encompass the other areas of my life to make sure that I'm recalibrating, like you said, all those different ways. And though, what I would add to that, and this is what I'm always reminding myself is that I am a shadow version of myself when I'm burnt out.
And so if you really wanna make a difference, you are making the most powerful difference when you're showing up and doing your work as you know, your fully energized, amazing self. And when you're depleted, like you can produce for people, but are you really making a difference in the same kind of a way? Probably not. And so this is where I feel like the...
Like the perfectionism tricks us up because with this more is always better. Working harder is always better. It's not actually about, are we producing the outcomes in the way that we want? And it's just so wild how irrational and kind of self -sabotaging it can make us. But the thing that I like about the recalibration point,
is that this is going back to like the perfecting perfectionism. I think that people can be like, well, you know, identify my values. I'm going to make these changes and then I'm going to be all values aligned for the rest of my life. And so no, that you cannot expect that to work. We have to be, it's an ongoing thing. And the perfectionist, because it's so deeply rooted in a fixed mindset, like I should, if I can do it, I shouldn't have to try. I should be able to do it and it's done. You know, they're so averse to this.
Molly Connolly (36:53.07)
commitment to maintaining it and expecting that, yeah, you know, things will get pulled in other directions and then we'll fix it and that's okay. And like we can consistently, we can be a little bit more fluid about things as opposed to this black and white thinking about how things have all or nothing black and white thinking about how things have to go.
Molly Connolly (00:00.142)
And that brings me to another point. Like, can you elaborate on how you help your clients like work through their perfection? I know you've brought up like the self -compassion, the values, but maybe even just like a client example of how you help them still achieve success in a way that serves them. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think the first thing identifying what are, what are the qualities that you want to keep and what do you want to get rid of? And
What and why do you want to get rid of the parts that you want to get rid of like what are the costs? Like what is the issue? Why are we even having this conversation? And I think that having people really hone in on the costs of it so if their perfectionism is making them procrastinate on big projects or to completely burn themselves out so that then they're showing up not fully present for important things because they pulled themselves in too many directions
or if they're completely neglecting their relationships and it's damaging them and they care about them. So what's the reason, first of all? Then it's the cultivating the self -compassion because the way that we can keep the drive for the excellence and wanting to pursue our values and these things that we care about without the negative effects is we need to be coming at it not from a place of
fear of not being good enough, not being worthy enough, and how can we start to cultivate some self -worth? It's through self -compassion. And so the way to start cultivating self -compassion is first, mindfulness, because mindfulness helps us notice what are those thoughts that are coming into our head when we are doubling down on these perfectionist impulses. So...
When we're saying like, I need to work harder or, you know, it won't be good enough or I'm exhausted, but I just need to do this. Or when we're tearing ourselves apart for not doing something the way that we want and seeing those thoughts and separating ourselves from them. And so we want to get really familiar with these inner critics or these inner drill sergeants. And so this is going back to what you were saying earlier about like, who was that voice? What does that voice remind you of? And so often, you know, it might be a former coach or a former parent. And so
Molly Connolly (02:19.95)
Really like thinking about like what are the words your critic uses or the phrases that come up again. I actually draw my critic. I make all of my clients draw their critics so you can notice it when it's coming up and then when it comes up see it and just say, you know, acknowledge it validated. Say like I see you. I know you're trying to help but all you're doing is paralyzing and distracting me with anxiety and shame right now and it's not actually moving me forward. And then I
ask them to practice speaking to themselves as they would a dear friend in the same situation. So what would they say if it was someone else in their shoes? And the thing is, is it feels so forced in the moment when you start practicing these compassionate thoughts, because our self -critical thoughts and our self -drill sergeant thoughts are so deeply wired, but the power of neuroplasticity is that every time that we think
specific thought, the neurons that the neural connections that like fire to make that thought happen, they become deeper or stronger and more instinctive. So it becomes easier and more natural for us to think that thought again. So literally practicing self compassionate thoughts over time, we can grow our self compassionate voice. And as we do that, it's like there's only so much bandwidth in our heads. It's like a radio station if the frequency of
the self compassionate voice grows stronger, which it will if you practice talking to yourself in this way, the self, the critical or the drill sergeant voice will grow weaker, changing the way that you relate to yourself overall. But then the next part is when you talk to yourself in this self compassionate manner and use that to help you ride the anxious urge. So the anxious urge that's telling you like you need to work more here or you can't take this break or you
need to keep trying to perfect this part of this assignment, even though you know you need to move on, you can get yourself over that hurdle, then allow yourself to observe how it goes. Because the problem is that most perfectionists, like, we're so scared to deviate even slightly because we think that everything's going to fall apart if we do, but we've never actually tried it. And so then, if you pay attention, see, I did something slightly differently, and actually, everything didn't fall to pieces.
Molly Connolly (04:45.806)
And I feel so much better and more energized afterwards that that'll give you the motivation to keep at it. And so it definitely takes practice and time for this to start taking effect. But if you are doing this consistently, this pattern of noticing yourself critical thoughts and responding with self -compassion within a week or so you will start noticing benefits and.
just the science about the impact that this will have on not only your health and happiness, but also your ability to perform is just wild. yeah. And then I love too, like when you are practicing self -compassion, you can feel it in your body too. So eventually that anxious urge you talked about is going to get less and less and less, just like the inner critic. And you're going to be able to really amplify the emotions and physical feelings to connect with that thought of self -compassion.
and you're gonna start to crave those moments where it's like, you know, with those moments where you feel calm and relaxed and like you just got done with a massage, like you're gonna crave those. And so you're gonna want to have more moments of self -compassion and able to like release and relax and feel fulfilled and joy without feeling the pressure of have to be fulfilled and joyful, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And you're gonna recognize like, I think that what we think is that giving into that anxious urge
What it does is it very temporarily brings down the notch on our anxiety for a second. And so that's why our brains think that it'll make us feel better because it does for a second. The problem is that we're discounting that slow burn of mounting anxiety and pain that we feel overall as a result of giving into those urges every time. And so by doing exactly what you just said, like letting yourself really appreciate and letting your
brain download the positive reward value of when you try something different, you can realize that reward value is actually so much bigger than, you know, the little hit of dopamine or reduced cortisol that you get by pressing the easy button and just like giving into whatever your anxious impulse is saying to you in that moment. yeah. And you know what? Here's another thing, because now I'm starting to realize like by shifting and recalibrating, because that's your I love that word now.
Molly Connolly (07:06.446)
it's also talking about like how you were discussing balance too earlier. And so sometimes I think as high achievers and a perfectionist, we crave that balance in our lives. And when we truly want to feel at peace with ourselves and like making those choices, what do you recommend to the ladies listening, like in order to get on their own path to peace? So what I would say in getting on your own path to peace, asking yourself,
When you are feeling this urge to do something, ask yourself what's what is motivating you to do it in that instance and whether it's something at home or something at work. Are you being driven by your values in that instance or are you being driven by fear? Because I think that it's the fear. Fear is like all of the shoulds. I should be, you know, I'm hosting a Friendsgiving tomorrow.
my perfectionist brain would probably say, yeah, I should be downstairs cooking up a storm right now. I'm catering that Thanksgiving proudly because you know what? I have only so much bandwidth to do, but I think, and if I was to stay up all night depleting myself cooking because I feel like that's the right thing, but then I don't have the energy and presence to actually be with my loved ones that are coming tomorrow, like that would be defeating the purpose.
Similarly, like if you're volunteering for another thing at work or you're pursuing, you know, staying, pursuing another project or pursuing another degree or whatever the thing is, like what is driving you in that moment? Because I think that if we can start to pull those things apart, we can identify where we're hustling to prove our worth in any area of our life. And if we can just rein those in and trust that
we don't need to hustle to prove our worth because we are so freaking worthy and we are just holding ourselves back. We're self -sabotaging by depleting ourselves, by letting this fear drive us. And so what I would say is rather than focusing on, you know, I need to be, because I think even hitting any specific balance, that's kind of a fear should. And that's why I would always like to ask myself, how would I show up or what would I do here if I believed I was worthy?
Molly Connolly (09:29.87)
I believe that I was completely worthy and I was just doing these things for the sake of honoring my values and what I care about and trying to do a good job for those reasons. And I think that is a really helpful guiding principle because there's no one cookie cutter right answer for all situations. And so it's funny, I have one of my other bracelets in addition to the remember love I have here, I have one that says, may you know, and it's because
I had my therapist create this loving kindness meditation for me because loving kindness meditations, if they're a meditation that people use to cultivate self -compassion and often they involve you repeating to yourself and others, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be at peace. But those phrases, I said, these are great, but you know, they don't really feel like exactly what I need to hear. And so we created one just for me and it started, may you know that you are worthy.
May you be free to be who you are. May you know that you are loved. Because I truly, truly believe if I can just lock down and know those things, that will liberate me and empower me to show up as the person that I really want to be unshackled from the fear that has kept me hijacked and contained for so much of my life. I know we mentioned meditation earlier and I
you that that was something I try to do. I really feel that sometimes those simple meditations of repeating certain phrases over are way more effective than the ones that are like, you're walking through a field. And so I listen to one like that's like, may you be healthy, may you be well, please be well, please be healthy. And just, it takes a whole different
feel like a whole different life of its own. Like I feel the vibration in my body when I'm listening to those and how I know it's making an impact just by listening to it on a regular basis. Like maybe it's only five to 10 minutes, but it's extremely helpful to almost, you know, recenter myself before I start a day or in the middle of the day to recenter myself and refocus about like what is healthy. Healthy is not working myself to death. Healthy doesn't mean like going and going in strict diets even like, you know, people
Molly Connolly (11:49.07)
might go that way of perfectionism of wanting to make sure that they're healthy from certain ways they want to eat. So it's very liberating at the same time as we listen to those sort of meditations. So I'm glad you brought that up because now I love how you for even just your relationship yourself, like you have those reminders on your wrist and those wonderful bracelets. But like when you think about it, how has this impacted
You know, maybe you want to talk about a client, but even like how has this impacted your relationship with your husband of like working on this, like you met him so long ago. So how has this impacted your guys' relationship of working on your perfectionism? my God, it is, I don't think that I could have fully been in a relationship with him. And when I say fully, I could have, we could have had a relationship, but it wouldn't have been.
this relationship where I feel like he's integrated into my soul. And I think it's really, this is why, this is going back to the wherever you go, there you are. It's why I think this stuff is so important because if I wasn't honoring myself in this way, I don't think I would have been able to build a relationship where someone is honoring me as well. And our relationship has gotten so much better as it's almost like we've been in.
Hupples counseling, but we haven't, but my own work on myself has rippled outward. It's also hilarious because now I'm teaching him all this stuff for his self, because I'm like, do self -compassion. It'll make you so much more effective at work in all these ways. And so he thought it was ridiculous for the first few years, and then he's starting to see it.
and the way that it's helping me in my professional life and my clients. And then it's like, okay. So now it's like, we do a little executive coaching sessions at home. But no, it really, I think being able to care for myself has enabled me to show up in the relationship in a way that it can really be a, just a mutually respectful, mutually compassionate.
Molly Connolly (13:56.046)
relationship. Also, I think that doing this work on myself has empowered me to be really vulnerable in the relationship because you know the perfectionism it's all about having that air and those appearances of perfection. And you know I have I've dealt with serious trauma. I've got deep wounds. I have deep struggles. I have many imperfections. And I remember with someone I had a therapist earlier in life. I was like well I can't imagine ever
Like these aspects of me are the things that I would never want anyone to know about me, but it is so important to me that my future husband knows these things about me and can accept these things for me. And so getting to that place was such a big thing. And it's so funny, I even wrote it into our vows, which he edited and accepted about how the last line of it is, may I like support you in pursuing your wildest dreams while...
always reminding you that I adore you exactly as you are because that exactly as you are that unconditional worthiness, I feel like is such an essential thing. But I think unless you believe in that for yourself, you can't command that for yourself. And you also can't give that to others. And so that's another thing that I think about putting aside my relationship with my husband. What about my relationship with my future children?
I, like you, my perfectionism is very much a product of my upbringing. And all the research shows that these types of things are passed down through generations. And so my approach to parenting is very much the buck stops here. Like, I am not going to do this to my children. So how can I raise them to have feelings of unconditional self -worth? Well, sure, I can.
make them think, know that I love and appreciate them and value them unconditionally, but I also need to model it myself. And if I am, you know, manifesting and modeling this perfectionism and ruthless self -criticism, even if I tell them, you know, you shouldn't be this way, they're going to see it and they're going to think like, that's how you should behave. And so I think that so much of this work that we're doing, I think people can often think,
Molly Connolly (16:15.722)
it's selfish to be doing this work on yourself. It's selfish to practice self -compassion, but actually like it's the best thing that you can be doing for the people around you too. yeah. And you said it early on the ripple effect. Like I know that I didn't work on myself. I would never have the husband I have today because I never thought I could get to this point of loving and caring and valuing and even like trusting myself to make the decision to find a good man. So, and let alone like,
the career. I was a previous in, I was, I previously was in like digital marketing and working very crazy hours as well. depending on what company I was working for and when the pandemic hit got worse, but I trusted myself to know that like, this is the time I need to be all in on coaching and go. And if I didn't believe that in myself, he wasn't even my husband yet. He would have never been like,
yeah, he'd be like, no, I don't think that's right. That's not a great idea. I don't think that this is gonna make you happy. You just need to stay here and do this. But he listened and he's like, well, if you think it's right for you, go for it. So to be able to have the trust and knowing for yourself of what you value and what you are passionate about, regardless of like, if that's a career, you know, raising children, whatnot, like knowing those things and loving and having that compassion for yourself is a ripple effect because other people see you.
they see your authentic side and that allows that deeper self -compassion and they are thinking, well, how can I be compassionate to myself? And so you just pass it on. And it's a wonderful way to think about if I worked on myself, how will that affect my parents? If I work on myself, how's that gonna affect my significant other or my siblings or my best friend? Like doing the work, you get to be and model that and be that example for other people.
Totally. And this stuff, the research shows it's literally contagious. There's mirror neurons in our brains that we're thinking and feeling in certain ways. People around us are more likely to do it too. And it's so powerful. Yeah. Well, I got to ask you one last question here. What do you think, or what do you want the ladies to take away from our conversation today? Because there's a lot of
Molly Connolly (18:35.278)
lot of great gold nuggets in here to be honest. So I would say for any perfectionists who are listening, you probably have for a long time now recognized that your perfectionism is causing you some sort of personal or emotional pain, but you've probably felt like, well, you can't possibly get rid of it because it's also been the secret sauce for your success. It's been the thing driving you forward.
But what I want you to know, and I know this from my own experience from seeing this in countless clients in the research is that our perfectionism and our self -criticism and our self -doubt are actually like these heavy weights that have been tied around our ankles for all this time and they are holding us down. They are distinct from all of those positive qualities like our drive and our commitment for excellence. And if we can learn how to
release them, release this self doubt, release this self criticism, release this ruthless perfectionism, we will soar so much higher than we even imagine possible. And I just want you to know that like I get it. I know that feeling which is this hurts, but I need it because it's making me succeed. And I just want you to know it is not true. And so take that baby step, baby toe step forward of faith and
Practice some self -compassion and then pay attention and see what happens because I promise you You will be blown away by the effects of it Yes, I agree with that that's I'm gonna leave that right there. I'm not gonna come Well, please tell me and actually tell the ladies where they can find you services that you have anything else so we can share Absolutely. So my website is Jordana can you know calm?
I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram at Jordana Confino. If you wanna subscribe to my blog, Chronicles of Recovering Type A Plus Perfectionist, you can do that through my website. And the services that I provide, I do individual coaching as well as workshops and trainings on perfectionism and positive psychology more broadly. But if you're interested in this topic, if you wanna talk more, as you can tell, I'm pretty much obsessed with it. So please don't.
Molly Connolly (20:55.438)
don't hesitate to reach out and also Molly I'll give you the links to my self -compassion guide and my values discovery guide so that people can access those as well and those both have some really helpful exercises to get you started on identifying your values, better aligning your life with them and cultivating the self -compassion so you can reign in your perfectionism and inner critics.
yes. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Jordana. How wonderful of a podcast like this is going to be so helpful. I know the ladies listening are going to they better. They aren't already. They're going to go back and listen to this and take notes. well, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much again for having me today. It was so much fun spending the time with you.